265 Success is Different

Welcome to the KC CHIROpulse Podcast.  

This week’s topic:  Success in practice is different than you may think! 

The KC CHIROpulse Podcast is designed for Chiropractic professionals ready to elevate their practice to new heights.  This week, the show is hosted by Kats Consultants’ coaches Dr Michael Perusich and Dr Troy Fox, seasoned experts in Chiropractic business management.  This podcast provides invaluable insights and actionable strategies to help you create a flourishing and sustainable Chiropractic business.

In this episode, we discuss:

• Why there’s a difference in success between practices
• What makes some practices hugely successful and others not
• Why success requires intentionally driven multiple revenue streams 
• Why communication and creating value creates a great practice
• …and so much more…

In each episode of KC CHIROpulse, we delve into crucial aspects of building a successful Chiropractic practice, covering topics such as establishing a strong foundation, adopting a patient-centric approach, mastering marketing techniques, achieving financial fitness, fostering effective team building and leadership, integrating technology and innovation, and navigating common challenges in the field.

Whether you're a seasoned chiropractor or just starting your practice, the KC CHIROpulse Podcast offers a wealth of knowledge and personalized practical advice to help you navigate the intricate world of Chiropractic business. Join us on this journey as we explore proven strategies, share success stories, and connect with industry experts to empower you in your pursuit of building a thriving Chiropractic practice.

Don't miss out on the latest insights and expert guidance. Subscribe now and unlock the secrets to taking your Chiropractic practice to the next level. Your success is our priority at Kats Chiropractic Business Advisors.

DISCLAIMER:  The information presented in this broadcast is for educational purposes only and is not intended to offer legal, investment, accounting, or medical advice, and represents the opinions of the speakers.  Seek the consultation of a professional for advice in those areas. And remember…your results using this information may be different than described.

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KC CHIROpulse Podcast.  Helping Chiropractors keep their pulse on success.  Thanks for listening.

Transcript

success is different

[00:00:00] 

Success Versus Ordinary

Dr. Michael Perusich: What makes a successful practice different from the ordinary practice? Hi, everybody. Welcome to the KC ChiroPulse podcast, brought to you by Kats Consultants and ChiroHealth USA. Kats Consultants, where innovation is the foundation of success. Hi, everybody. I'm Dr. Michael Perusich. This is my co-host, Dr.

Troy Fox. Troy, from success to ordinary is not a fine line. It's, it- they're, they're not on the same level, but why? But why? 

Dr. Troy Fox : They're not on the, they're not on the same level, but yet the ability to reach that level is a lot closer than you think. A lot of people think- It's attainable for everybody ... they can't reach.

Yeah. And we see, we see a lot of practices. I'm gonna lay out the scenario and then have you talk about it for a little while. We see practices that are wildly successful. They provide multiple different revenue streams. Their practice has new patients calling for multiple different services. For example, in my practice, I may have a patient call that says, "Hey, I heard about Shockwave and I'm really interested in it."

[00:01:00] Or I may have a patient call and say, "Hey, I heard you do flexion distraction." Mm-hmm. Or a patient call and say, "Hey, I hear you do decompression." So there's multiple revenue streams or maybe dry needling or what... You know, there's so many different options out there. Sure. And when I look at my practice, I look at it as chiropractic is one of the services that we provide.

What I see sometimes in practices that are stuck is that chiropractic is the service, and every once in a while, if chiropractic isn't the total answer or isn't the answer at all, which sometimes it isn't the answer- Mm-hmm ... that we then think about doing a different service, but the chiropractic practice is promoted as only chiropractic, but maybe there's some other stuff.

And that's kinda how I see that dichotomy between the practices. What are your thoughts on that? 

Dr. Michael Perusich: Yeah. I, I agree. 

Sell Outcomes Not Adjustments

Dr. Michael Perusich: I, I think in today's world, patients want outcomes. They're not looking- Mm ... for chiropractic care- 

Dr. Troy Fox : Right ... 

Dr. Michael Perusich: per se. Mm-hmm. And don't [00:02:00] throw, don't throw needles at me here, but I think patients are looking more for outcomes.

Mm-hmm. We're running in, I call it a very narcissistic marketing society today. People want something for themselves. So in the old days when we would educate patients a ton about chiropractic care, I don't know that patients today really are looking for that. They're not looking for, why am I coming to you?

Why am I coming to a chiropractor? They're looking more at how can the chiropractor help me reach the outcomes I'm looking for. 

Dr. Troy Fox : I think you- And I- ... nailed that when you said 

Dr. Michael Perusich: that Yeah. I think we're selling outcomes today. 

Dr. Troy Fox : Mm. 

Dr. Michael Perusich: And, I hear some practices still wanting to do the old spinal care class at a report of findings and, and using every visit to hammer home how great chiropractic is.

And I, I don't think it's a bad thing on any given day during your treatment plan with a patient, but I think more importantly we have to make sure patients are connected [00:03:00] to what the outcome potential is. Because they didn't come to you looking for an adjustment most likely, they came to you looking for an outcome.

I can't play with my kids because my back hurts. I can't go to work 'cause my, my neck hurts. You know, whatever it might be. They're not looking for, "Okay, so I have back pain, so I need a chiropractor to adjust me." I don't know that patients are necessarily tying that together. I mean, it's just like going to a surgeon.

You go to a surgeon 'cause you, you have a, a gallbladder issue, for example, and a- are you looking for a surgeon to remove your gallbladder, or are you looking for a doctor to help you with the outcome of the symptoms you're feeling? And the, the surgery is the end result. Chiropractic care is the end result in a lot of cases.

So I think we have to remember why the patients are coming to us. 

Dr. Troy Fox : I think we've switched [00:04:00] gears a little bit because back in the day, what did we always do? The exam was a great time to educate patients about chiropractic- ... before we educated them even more. Now, I think the exam is a really great time to triage and talk about what options there are.

What I like to talk about patients, or, or talk to patients about is what are the options? Well, certainly chiropractic may be one of the answers that we want to use with you, but we also have o- other options, and here are what the other options are that tend to be successful for outcomes with this type of condition.

And then what I like to also do, without getting d- into dollars, because you and I have talked about this before, as the doctor, you should never get into the finances of the patient. But what I will tell a patient is, "Listen, what I'm gonna do is look at you, we're gonna make an evaluation, and we're gonna determine what do we think really several avenues to the good outcome could be.

Now, what is gonna be [00:05:00] the most cost-effective? That may be the first approach we take if we feel like it's a viable option. So we want to preserve your pocketbook if we can. That's fine. Everybody wants to preserve their pocketbook. Mm-hmm. But if I feel like that we need to do whatever our most expensive service is, that may be the route that we go, but let's look at our options and let me lay these out for you."

So rather than me educating about just chiropractic, I'm really talking about outcomes at that point and how we're gonna get to those outcomes, and tempering the patient's expectation because y- you also have to say- While you're doing this, listen, this may work for 90% of people. 10% of people, this is not gonna work for.

We don't want you to be that one, but we have to be aware that this isn't, it isn't foolproof. And so I talk through the options that way, and I think that opens up the avenues, and I think it opens up the avenue for the patient, too. 

Options Keep Patients Engaged

Dr. Troy Fox : And here's what's really important about this. Catch [00:06:00] this one thing. If I walk through all your options, "Okay, Michael, what we can do with your low back is, you know, we do have some options with shockwave.

We have some options with decompression. But it may be as simple as doing some flexion distraction with you and some ultrasound." 

Dr. Michael Perusich: Mm-hmm. "

Dr. Troy Fox : What do you say we start with that first?" And you're gonna say, "Okay." But how about three visits in when your low back pain hasn't budged one iota? Okay. In the past, if I only offered chiropractic care and only one option, what did you do?

You quit care, right? Yep. Well, it's not working. Now what do my patients do? "Hey, Doc, you talked to me a little bit about doing that decompression or that shockwave. I'm really interested in that because I just don't think my back's responding as quickly as I thought it would. What do you think?" They'll ask me that, and I'll go, "You know, I think we need to give this a few more visits," or, "You know what?

I'm in agreement with you. I think that you should have started to respond by this point. Let's shift gears [00:07:00] and try another option at this point." So I think it gives you more options, and I think that's a big key is having options rather than a single option in your practice. 

Dr. Michael Perusich: I agree. So we need to take a quick break for a word from our sponsors, but when we come back, I wanna kinda tie that back into how that separates the, the ordinary practice, if you will, or the non-successful practice from the successful practice.

So we'll be right back

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The result, doctors stop undercharging, raise fees, and increase income by about twenty percent without sacrificing care. That's not a discount strategy. It's a [00:08:00] business strategy. Learn more at chirohealthusa.com.

Dr. Michael Perusich: Okay, welcome back everybody. We're talking about successful versus not as successful, and where does that paradigm shift come from? And Troy, I think you brought up a good point in practice, we've got to be... i'm gonna tie several things together here. Mm-hmm. In practice, we have to be patient-centric, and today patient-centric means not just helping the patient understand chiropractic care, 'cause I don't think that's as necessary as it used to be.

I'm not saying it's a bad thing, but I don't think it's as necessary. Number two, we have to be very outcome-focused, and to be outcome-focused, if a patient isn't progressing in care, we need to have a bag of tricks. We need to have some options to present to the patient so that it's not a chiropractic care didn't work."

What we want to hear is, "My chiropractic doctor, my doctor of chiropractic, my doctor of chiropractic medicine," whatever you go by in your state, [00:09:00] "My doctor helps me get great outcomes. My chiropractor helped me get great outcomes," not, "Chiropractic didn't work." 

Dr. Troy Fox : Mm-hmm. 

Dr. Michael Perusich: So if chiropractic doesn't work, let's try flexion distraction, like you said.

Let's try mixing in some shockwave. Let's try mixing in some dry needling. Let's try mixing in some rehabilitative exercises. Let's try all these different components that we have. And I, I really think that's a lot of what separates success today from the less, excuse me, the less suc- successful doctors.

And Troy, we see this. There are doctors who have a lot of tools in their practice, but they don't use them. 

Dr. Troy Fox : They 

Dr. Michael Perusich: don't use- They're not used. Yeah. They may have bought a shockwave, but it's sitting over in the corner not being utilized. 

Dr. Troy Fox : And the patients don't even know that they utilize that, and so rather than them understanding that there are other avenues, they just think there's only one [00:10:00] because that's what they were offered.

So as a chiropractor, I think us offering multel- multiple avenues, and again, like you said, outcomes, I think changes the game when a patient enters the room because they realize at that point now you've become, which is really important, a valued addition to their healthcare team. 

Dr. Michael Perusich: Right. 

Dr. Troy Fox : Now that patient comes to you and says, "Hey, Doc, I've got blah, blah, blah," and it may not even be within your scope.

"I've got blah, blah, blah. What do you think about this?" And when you get to that point with patients, and I've talked about this in previous podcasts, at that point, you are a valued member of their healthcare team, and the easiest way to get there, in my opinion, is not to just say chiropractic is the only answer for everything because unfortunately in practice, like you said, we have to have a full bag of tricks because not everybody's gonna respond as well as we'd like to that chiropractic adjustment because sometimes there's things holding them back.

Sometimes it's not even you, right? It's the fact that they're type 2 [00:11:00] diabetic, they smoke, they don't exercise- 

Dr. Michael Perusich: They don't drink water 

Dr. Troy Fox : They don't drink water, and they're not willing to make changes to any of that. You're, you- ... they say, "I want you to fix me." Okay, well, we may have to pull out more tricks out of the bag if we're gonna make that happen, while I encourage you at the same time, "Hey, you know, if you did a couple of these things, it probably would improve your outcomes."

You know, that's a big thing, like with smokers. I always tell them, "Listen I'm not getting on you about smoking. I could sit here and chastise you and read you the, read you the riot act about why smoking is bad for you. You already know that it is. It's a habit that you have, and you have an addiction to nicotine."

"Totally get it. So I'm not here to make you feel bad about whatever your habit is. What I'm here to make you understand is that our outcomes may be a little bit lessened or a little bit slowed because you smoke, and that's gonna reduce the amount of oxygen that's getting to your tissues."

Patients appreciate that when you're just- Sure ... straightforward. "Hey, I'm a team member. I'm here to help you. I'm [00:12:00] not here to scold you for your habits." Right. 'Cause we've all got some, right? 

Dr. Michael Perusich: Yep. Absolutely right. 

Pricing Profit And Bundling

Dr. Michael Perusich: Y- you know, and one of the other things that... I'm gonna shift gears here a little bit. One of the other things that I think we have to be aware of, of what makes us successful today, is not hiding behind insurance.

We're talking about having tools in your practice to be able to help the patient and help the patient along with something other than just chiropractic care. While chiropractic care is great, and again, don't, don't shoot arrows at us for talking about chiropractic this way. Obviously, we love chiropractic.

But to be successful today we have to make sure that we have the tools to be able to help patients. So now, having the tools also means we have to have the mentality in our practice to charge for those services, and help patients understand the necessity behind their investment in those [00:13:00] services.

So I see far too many doctors wanting to kinda do this quote bundle thing where, you know, if you come in, you can get, you can get shockwave, a muscle stim, an adjustment for an adjustment price. 

Dr. Troy Fox : Mm. 

Dr. Michael Perusich: And they're not charging that fair market value for those extra services when they have huge value if they're helping the patient.

So we've gotta quit hiding behind that old insurance model and trying to make patients think care is cheap or copay-based. So we've gotta make sure that we're producing profit, that- that's the ultimate place where I was going, in our practice. And a, a lot of doctors unfortunately don- don't even know where their profit points are.

Dr. Troy Fox : And bundling i- in my opinion, reduces the overall value of the treatment that you're giving. Absolutely 

Dr. Michael Perusich: it 

Dr. Troy Fox : does. You know, when, when I'm offering shockwave to a patient, if I try to reduce the value of that, now in their mind they're going, "Well, that isn't that [00:14:00] valuable of a thing because he's already cutting the price on this thing."

You know, I'm not being a nice guy. What I am is undercutting myself, not only financially, but I'm reducing the value to the patient because how many of us have bought like a premium product because we expect a premium outcome with it? Shockwave is one of those. I mean, I, I keep going back to that, but shockwave is one.

It's a little more expensive for us as docs to operate because it is a consumable every time that thing makes a clicking noise, right? It is a consumable. It only operates for so long. But with that said, you better know already what it costs you every time that thing makes a popping noise. Every time it clicks, you better know what it costs you.

So you better know what your margin is, and if you start giving it away, quite frankly, you can actually cost yourself- Mm-hmm ... in the long run. So my staff and I talk about that all the time. What is our cost to operate that piece of equipment if it were to reach, and we always use it, if it reaches w- the end of warranty.

Yep. So end of warranty here's what [00:15:00] they're allowing for the end of warranty. If we reach this many clicks or this many shockwaves, what does it cost us? So you have to look at your treatment methods like that. It's a little harder when you're looking at, say, an electrical stim machine. Mm-hmm. Or it's a little harder when you're looking at dry needling because maybe I put five needles in one patient, and maybe I put 25 in the next patient.

But I have to have an average of like, okay, what does it cost me to needle patients? What... So there's- Sure ... a bottom line on everything that you do. So you can't just give it away, number one. But to devalue it, which is what we're really talking about- 

Dr. Michael Perusich: Mm-hmm ... 

Dr. Troy Fox : to me, makes the patient think, "Well, that's not really worth that much."

Dr. Michael Perusich: Well, and here's the other thing you run into. If your patients during acute care phase come in and they get an adjustment and shockwave, for example, and you don't charge them for shockwave, you only charge them for the adjustment, or you give the appearance that that's what you're doing, the minute the patient's no longer on acute care and they go to maintenance care [00:16:00] and they don't need shockwave anymore, guess what?

They're asking, "Why am I paying the same price? Why am I not getting shockwave too? I like shockwave." "That felt good." Why- 

Dr. Troy Fox : Yeah ... 

Dr. Michael Perusich: now you've put yourself between a rock and a hard place with the patient because you've, you, you've done that show game that now works against you. 

Dr. Troy Fox : That's 100%, and, and that's why it also makes it pretty tough when somebody wants to come in for a different service to not have multiple revenue streams.

When we first started this conversation today, I talked about multiple revenue streams in your practice, and a patient may be calling for a specific revenue stream, and I'm gonna use shockwave again, or they call for chiropractic or they call for dry needling. Those are... Yeah, and maybe decompression.

Those are probably the big four that people call on the phone for in my practice. Mm-hmm. "This is what I'm looking for." And they may or may not need that, and a lot of times they'll say, "I'm not so sure that this is exactly what I need, but I heard from a friend of mine that you do this, and it sounded like this might be effective for me."

And [00:17:00] that's where you put your doctor hat on and then go, "Okay. Here's what's going on with you, and here's what I recommend." But let's say later on if shockwave wasn't the answer, and I go, "Hey, what you really need is a series of chiropractic adjustments." 

What if later on they have another problem that really would benefit from shockwave?

Maybe we've got a tendonitis. Yeah. Maybe we've got plantar fasciitis. Maybe we've got something that's gonna benefit from a different technique that would be the, probably the primary technique, but it's been bundled prior. Yeah. Okay. How do I justify that now- Well, you justify it to the patient ... that you've paid for that?

Yeah. So now you've just removed all of your additional revenue streams because you are running a business. 

Dr. Michael Perusich: Right. 

Dr. Troy Fox : It's like me going into Kwik Shop and going, "Hey, you know what?" I'm, my wife's not around today, so I can eat whatever I want for lunch, right? I'm gonna get a Coca-Cola and a slice of gas station pizza.

Now, why would I say that? 'Cause I've done that [00:18:00] before. I've done it. But here's the thing. I have never gone to the gas station and had them bundle my Coca-Cola and my slice of pizza, and if they did, I would expect that when I go in there, I'm gonna get a slice of pizza and a Coke. I would not like very much then if they started charging me 4.99 for the pizza and $2 for the Coke- Right

when it was 3.99 for both. Now, people run specials, I get it. But that's in the- Sure ... retail world with food. But when you're running a practice, that revenue stream needs to be separated. Yep. It really has to be because- Has to be ... otherwise you're gonna talk to somebody that says, "Hey, so and so's friend told me that you would do this for this price."

And you're like, "Oh, man, I just shot myself in the foot because I'm losing money when I do that." Yep. "Or I'm barely breaking even." So then we run into the conundrum of is it more important to be busy or profitable? Yep. I'm gonna say it's more important to be profitable. [00:19:00] So that's why having those multiple revenue streams available is so important.

This is like an intricate crossword puzzle or a, a jigsaw puzzle. Mm-hmm. When we put a practice together, it's not as clear-cut as the single piece. 

Dr. Michael Perusich: Right. 

Dr. Troy Fox : You can only see the whole picture if you put the whole puzzle together, and that requires that you generate a profit, that you've got multiple revenue streams, if that's what you do.

If you're a straight chiropractor, this probably isn't a conversation for you right now. But if you use any kind of therapies in your practice or adjuncts in your practice, this is exactly the conversation you need. 

Dr. Michael Perusich: It is, and this, this is why we spend a great deal of time teaching doctors how to put together their fee structure- Mm-hmm

properly, and then how to communicate it to patients, and then how to use it in practice. Because if you've got great tools and you never generate any profit out of them, you're just shooting yourself in the foot. And so I'm [00:20:00] gonna, I'm gonna give everybody a little jewel here, and I don't normally give out little jewels like this, as you know, Troy.

Yeah. Um, but I want you, if you're listening this far in the, in the podcast, go take a look at your collection visit average. And if it's- If your collection visit average is within 30% of your adjustment price, your adjustment fee, your fee strategy's wrong. 

Period. End of story. And you should be on the phone calling us to help find out, how do I fix this?

Because you're shooting yourself in your own, in your own practice. You're depressing your own profitability and your own revenue by not charging correctly for these things. There is a fair market value to everything, and, you know, I hear this all the time. "Well, patients won't pay for that."

The heck they won't. The most successful practices, if we wanna talk about success versus mediocre success, w- huge success versus mediocre in the chiropractic world today, it's the 100% all cash [00:21:00] practices that are shooting the lights out. Don't tell me that patients won't pay. Troy, your practice is all cash.

My practice was all cash. 

Um, we know what this is and, you know, we help doctors do this all the time, so we understand this process. So go check your collection visit average, uh, when we get done with this podcast. 

Dr. Troy Fox : Yeah, that's 100% true. When you talk about the cash aspect of that, patients have to have whole buy-in, total buy-in, when you're in a cash practice.

So we have to be very succinct. We also have to provide a clear picture for the patient for them to make a decision when you're running a cash practice. So this isn't one of those deals where we're going, "Well, you have a 20 d- $25 copay," like, a- and some of you are still operating in insurance.

Back when I did, there really wasn't a whole lot of que- "Well, I have a $25 copay. Do whatever you need to do." Right. It's a little different when you offer more services or different services. Now the front desk does have to that, have that conversation [00:22:00] with them about what it is, but that's another...

Remember what I said about the jigsaw puzzle? We can pull on a thread and go all over the map on this thing, because what else do we have to do? Staff have to understand the process. They have to understand the services. It- Right ... that's why having somebody consult with you, for you, when you work on this, to set up a process to get you in position to actually offer these services, is really important because just putting it out there and saying, "Well, we're gonna start offering this service."

Really, in a lot of cases, ends up with a piece of dusty equipment in the corner. 

Dr. Michael Perusich: Yeah, it does. Too often. Yeah. Unfortunately. So we need to hit another word from our sponsor. When we come back, we're gonna kinda wrap things up in this podcast, so hang in there and we'll be right back.

Speaker 4: Patient numbers, dipping staff overwhelmed, and another marketing idea, promising the world, but delivering nothing. These pressures feel familiar to [00:23:00] nearly every Chiropractic clinic today across the country. Chiropractors work hard, yet many find themselves stuck. Balancing patient care with the nonstop demands of running a business.

That's where the real strain begins. Most clinics face the same set of hurdles, inconsistent new patient flow, operational bottlenecks, and the constant challenge of staying visible in an overcrowded digital space. National reports show that over 60% of clinics struggle with scheduling efficiency alone and even more lack of clear marketing strategy that reliably converts.

But the good news, these challenges aren't roadblocks. They're signals with the right procedures, smarter outreach and guidance built specifically for Chiropractic practices, clinics can turn daily stress into sustainable growth. Stronger clinics start with smarter strategies. Grow your practice with confidence.

Book your strategy session with Kats [00:24:00] Consultants.

Wrap Up And Next Steps

Dr. Michael Perusich: Okay, everybody. Welcome back to the KC ChiroPulse Podcast. Troy, we've been talking about successful practices and what makes them, and I think we hit on something very important today that in today's world, we have to be, number one, patient-focused, not chiropractic-focused. Mm-hmm. And I don't mean eliminating chiropractic from your treatment plans.

I mean spending more time connecting patients to what the expected outcomes are, rather than helping them understand how great chiropractic is. 

Dr. Troy Fox : Mm-hmm. 

Dr. Michael Perusich: It requires a mix of both in a lot of cases. The other thing is making sure you have additional services, and that you're charging for them. Far too often, and, and I hate this our profession seems to always be a race to the bottom when it comes to profitability.

Let's, let's rise up and be who we are and what we deserve to be by charging for what we do. Patients will pay for it, period, end of story. And if you're having trouble with that in your practice, give us a call. Kats Consult- or go to our website, katsconsultants.com. Our phone [00:25:00] number's on there. Go check out all the great things that we're doing.

If you wanna just talk about your practice jump on one of our schedules and let's have a little breakthrough call. Let's spend 20 minutes and talk about your practice and where your trouble points are, and how we might be able to help you. Troy, anything to add? 

Dr. Troy Fox : I think we could probably talk for the next three hours about several of the items on here.

At least. But I think we stop, I think we stop there because that really gives you a clearer picture if you're kind of a, if you're a practice that's been very down the middle with kind of one revenue stream or maybe, maybe a couple of revenue streams, it gives you an idea of how to expand your practice easily.

But it's challenging to get it all right, the pricing, staff training, promoting it correctly- 

... 

Dr. Troy Fox : Roll- rolling it out to where the patients are embracing it. A- and so th- there's multitudes of that. So, you know, like you said, having a breakthrough call with us, there's no obligation with that. Mm-hmm. [00:26:00] You just get a hold of us, and we talk to you about your practice because we're interested in practices, and if we can offer you- Absolutely

something that can help you, man, what a benefit to you. And, it makes us happy too because we love helping chiropractors. 

Dr. Michael Perusich: We do, and we're all about innovation. We're not about w- what worked 20 years ago and go try this and that. We're all about creating new ways to look at the chiropractic business model, and I'm telling you, it's changed, and it's continuing to change, and we are staying on the cutting edge of what makes practices successful.

So we're absolutely no pressure, so again, go check us out at katsconsultants.com. We always appreciate everybody listening every week. So our podcast is growing like crazy, so be sure to like and subscribe and tell your friends about this. And we appreciate Chiro Health USA being part of our, uh, sponsorship as well.

So from all of us here at Kats Consultants, we'll see you guys next time. 

Dr. Troy Fox : See [00:27:00] ya.